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Tuesday, November 19, 2013
My experience of reading P T Forsyth
I felt a bit ill at ease amongst a bunch of academics, and having decided to speak without reading from notes, since I assumed that the other speakers would also do so, was surprised to find that all five of them used notes extensively, even though all of them are University level teachers. Well, there had to be an odd man out somewhere.
Anyway, it was never intended to be a long speech, and it wasn't. In fact, I probably missed out some things I intended to say, and muddied the ones I did say. Never mind. I don't claim to be good at speaking in public - I thought of trying to act the role of myself as a public speaker, but I'm not sure that I got there. This post then, is an attempt to tidy up what I really would have liked to say.
So...P T Forsyth - the emphasis, I think, is on the second syllable: For-syth. (Much more Scottish that way.) I'd never heard of Forsyth until a couple of years ago, perhaps, and even then only came across him on Jason Goroncy's blog, where he now has his own subject heading. At first I got the impression that he was some old fogey of a theologian that Jason had cottoned onto; I didn't realise at that point that Jason had two books in the pipeline focusing on Forsyth, and more than that, had done his thesis on him, and more than that still, was virtually one of the world's experts on him. Read his first book on Forsyth, called Hallowed be Thy Name, and you'll see what I mean. Jason has a breadth of understanding of both the man and his theology that's occasionally mind-blowing. Well, actually mind-blowing most of the time.
Anyway, I kept noticing references to Forsyth on Jason's blog, and occasionally read a quote from Forsyth that was included in a post. And then there was more and more about the man - mainly because Jason's book was coming closer and closer to being published, and he was doing a good deal of promotion for it - naturally. But I still didn't take much notice of Forsyth himself, or of what he'd written. The first time I actually copied anything from Jason's blog (onto Evernote, my clippings 'file') was in July this year, when he wrote about the second of his two Forsyth books: Descending on Humanity and Intervening in History: notes from the pulpit ministry of P T Forsyth. Something in that post clicked with me, and I began to sit up and take notice of the old theologian. (Not Goroncy, Forsyth.)
Then, two or three months ago, I was trying to work out a better theology of the atonement - not by myself, but in relation to arguments that had surfaced twice on the Net in regard to it over a couple of weeks. I spoke to Jason about it and he suggested having coffee and talking, and when we did he handed me a copy of Forsyth's The Work of Christ, and suggested I read it. I took it away, and did read it - some of it twice (and because of the nature of Forsyth's style, some of it more than twice; I'll explain why in a minute).
It was exactly what I needed. It wasn't as if Forsyth was coming up with a completely new theology of the atonement - there's no such thing, really - but he brought such clarity and such a personal viewpoint to what he had to say that it was as if I was getting hold of it for the first time, and in a way that was immensely satisfying to my miniscule theological brain. He also clarified the whole aspect of God's holiness - something that's exceedingly important to him - and the place of Christ in the whole business - another one of his great themes. In doing so it helped open up for me a different way of thinking about Christ, something that I've also needed to do for many years.
Forsyth isn't an easy writer to read (though Jason says that the more you read him the easier it gets). I can't quite put my finger on the reason for this, but I wonder if it isn't partly the fact that he's Scottish. I have the same problem with George MacDonald, another Scottish writer. Both of them use the English language in a way that's slightly odd. It's something about the sentence construction, I think, rather than the words they use, because these are straightforward enough in general. MacDonald is perhaps more difficult than Forsyth; some of his sentences verge on unintelligibility as he leaps from thought to thought. Both he and Forsyth seem almost to turn the sentences inside out, put things back to front from your normal expectation. It's impossible to describe, but no doubt someone more able than yours truly could do it.
However, I worked hard at reading The Work of Christ. Fortunately Jason gave me a copy rather than lending me one; it's now littered with markings. I wrote notes on some sections as I read them, and even though it felt at the time as though I wasn't grasping what he had to say, it seems that I did. He's obviously a better teacher than I suspected. The way he hammers home a point works; he revolves around and around it until he's sunk it in. As I think about other theology in the course of my normal reading/writing, I find Forsyth's name keeps coming to mind, and what he said about matters.
And while I was reading The Work of Christ I also began to read Jason's first book, Hallowed be Thy Name. This is quite hard work too - for me. I'm not incapable of reading theology, and taking in theological terms, but it makes my brain ache a bit at times. Still reading the two books in tandem meant that I was cross-referencing Forsyth's thinking, and this was immensely helpful. Of course Jason's book is about much more than the Forsyth's view of the atonement, but everything in his book connects, so that you begin to feel you're getting to know how Forsyth looks at things. I've got a long way to go yet, but it's an interesting journey.
Forsyth doesn't like to give concrete examples; you might almost say he writes at a kind of abstract level. Some things, which are probably unexplainable, he doesn't trouble himself to explain. At least not in The Work of Christ. I'm the kind of reader who needs some 'pictures' to get a hold of, some stories to back up the theology. As far as I can remember there's only one story in the whole of The Work, and it's a vivid one about a railway worker who saves two trains from colliding by lying down between the tracks and manually working the switch, when the lever that should do the job has jammed. But having used that story, Forsyth then proclaims, pretty much, that it doesn't suffice for what he's trying to say. And he's right. But for the kind of reader I am, it's a help in terms of feeling as though there was something to hold onto in the book. (Incidentally, he also says at one point that if you haven't bothered to do some philosophy then it won't be surprising that you don't understand theology. I thought this was just a little sniffy of him, but I jotted a note on the page about it, and carried on reading.)
Theological writers in general, I guess, don't tend to make connections with the down-to-earth. That's perhaps not their job, but it may also explain why I've found some of them very hard work. Newbigin, whose book, The Gospel in a Pluralist Society, I re-read this year, is an exception; he beds his theology in the real world in a way Forsyth doesn't appear to do. However, I may be being unjust to Forsyth. At least, while he sometimes appears to use some words in a different way to the rest of us (which may be a result of his philosophical training), he doesn't change their meaning entirely. I remember reading a small amount of a book by Elizabeth Schüssler Fiorenza, and being astonished by the cavalier approach she seemed to take to the English language. Words changed meaning at the drop of a hat, as far as I could tell.
Forsyth is consistent in his use of language, at least. You just have to work out why he's using a particular word ('moral' was one I kept tripping over) in such a way. Once you've got hold of that, you can keep moving forward.
Well, this was intended as a kind of statement of what I would have said if I'd had plenty of time at the Book Launch, and had brought notes with me that were clearly written out. So if you were at all bamboozled by my speech earlier, hopefully this will help make more sense of it.
Saturday, February 25, 2012
The fabric of...
Here are some examples:
Sunday, August 07, 2011
Heavenly Choirs

Sang with Sunny Side Up again today, at the 'Heavenly Choirs concert' in Knox Church. The concert was a fundraiser for the Hospital Chaplaincy service, and went smoothly and successfully. Hopefully they made a few thousand dollars out of it.
I didn't feel quite so secure in my singing today, even though I knew the pieces. Just one of those days when you're more edgy than other times. Anyway, after we'd had afternoon tea at Knox, a good number of us trooped up to the house of a couple who are in SSU, and had an early tea of soup and buns and anything else people brought with them.
And a singsong. A good old-fashioned singsong.
Also in the concert were the Dunedin Harmony Chorus - we didn't get to hear them, unfortunately, being stuck backstage at that point. They were followed by the Southern Consort of Voices; these people were practicing when we arrived, and were singing some very difficult stuff and singing it well.
In the second half there were three secondary school choirs: Barock (as opposed to baroque), a strong group of boys and girls who sang very well, a girls' choir (their name escapes me because I've lost the programme) of about 25 young ladies who did a great Mumma Mia and a rather more serious piece that showed them off well but wasn't quite so peppy...!
The boys' choir at the end seemed just a little under par - perhaps it was because some of their singers were at the Cleveland Awards this afternoon. The whole group, choirs and audience finished up singing The Hallelujah Chorus. Great stuff.
Tuesday, October 20, 2009
All the gold in the world...
This seems incredible, but he seemed serious about it. Which presumably means that anyone who's a rare coin dealer (such as the firm, Monaco Rare Coin) doesn't have a lot of stock to play with, at least when it comes to gold. Monaco is one of the Monex group of firms, (I've written about them before in this blog on occasions), and they've been in business for forty years or so. I wonder how often the same bits of gold have passed through their hands in that time?
Of course, they don't just deal in gold, but in all sorts of rare coinage, and I guess there's plenty of that around the world. After all, most of us have seen large bags of coins in our lifetime (though perhaps less now than we used to) and it wouldn't take too many of those to fill a sizeable room. Though I guess if you're a rare coin collector, you wouldn't be needing too large a space to put your collection. And no doubt Monaco can point in you in the right direction when it comes to getting quality coins.
I'm really intrigued by this idea of the world's gold filling one not-so-spacious room. Why is Fort Knox so big, then? Is it because it's nearly all security and very little storage?
I'll have to get back to my friend and check it out properly obviously!
Monday, August 24, 2009
Coping with life - while having a cold
Of course, all the women out there will be saying, man-cold, man-cold, as they always do. I'm not surprised men don't go to the doctor more readily; they get mocked at for being sick. Do us guys mock women for trying out the latest weight loss pills? We wouldn't think of it. So give us a break, women.
Anyway, in the middle of all this, I've also been accompanying one of the singers in the senior vocal competitions here in Dunedin - even made it into the finals of the Otago Daily Times Aria Competition. I also played on Saturday for one of the bandsmen at the Provincial Competitions at Mosgiel, and I've coped with a very important meeting at work, one in which at least two people were in tears, and strong words were spoken, and truth was finally allowed some breathing room. (Incidentally neither my singer or bandsman got up into the top placings this time around. Ce la vie.)
And today, as part of my continuing education through work, I attended the first day of the Calvin Conference. (We have another day tomorrow.) I found it interesting, but couldn't have sat through the whole day, even if I hadn't had to go to the doctor's. Apart from my bum getting sore after two or three hours sitting on a hard chair, my brain concentration just gives up eventually. I listened to Professor Randall Zackman, who talked about Calvin and the beauty of the Universe, and how it's a sign to us that God is speaking. But in fact his message, if it had been pared down to bare essentials, was basically good old fashioned Gospel - disguised, somewhat, as an academic lecture.
The next speaker was Jason Goroncy, who spoke on John Calvin: Servant of the Word. I'm hoping he'll put the paper up on his blog, as he spoke at considerable speed, and I had difficulty taking notes. Some moments of real passion emerged from his talk, perhaps to the surprise of his audience!
I left after lunch and went and went for a walk and some fresh air, Knox College being conveniently close to the Botanical Gardens. Finally I came back to listen to Kirstine Moffat, who spoke about Calvinism and New Zealand Literature. I enjoyed this, though it seemed slightly off on a tangent from the main topic of the Conference. However, good to have it there.
Friday, June 29, 2007
The Floating Admiral Floats Away
Finished The Floating Admiral last night. It had become highly convoluted by the time the last chapter was written, and possibly improbable! And then, of course, once the book itself was finished there were the various solutions to be worked through. Sayers’ was the longest (and most amusing); Knox, in spite of claiming that he had no idea what was going on, still provided a solution, and of course by the time the book was finished the ‘inventions’ they’d created were superseded by even more complex difficulties. Though it was intriguing that one or two of them anticipated things that hadn’t been written when they presented their chapter.
I don’t know that it’s the most satisfactory way to write a novel – I was involved in a short-lived novel writing experiment some time ago in which each person in the group wrote a chapter. But the problem was that each new writer came up with more extreme and ridiculous things as they went along. It was fun but not very productive. In the end, there needs to be an overall mind at work. (Something Sayers herself would have agreed with, if her The Mind of the Maker is anything to go by.)
Thursday, June 28, 2007
G D H and M Cole
Next on my list of lesser-known detective writers are the husband and wife team: G D H and M Cole. The Times Literary Supplement of 8th Sept, 1927 wrote: “Mr. and Mrs. Cole are among the most remarkable and efficient of English detective writers… There is room in their stories for extraneous and intellectually, but not aesthetically, irrelevant things; in some of their stories
for excellent satire, and in this for the business of a pure novelist.”
Their plots are apparently highly ingenious, and their retired policeman/detective has ‘both a conscience and a brain (his favourite author is Chesterton).’
There’s an excellent bibliography of their books at this link. (Thank God for people who are enthusiastic for things I know nothing about!)
Wednesday, June 27, 2007
More on the Detection Club
It turns out that a number of compilation books were written by early members of the Club, though nothing quite along the lines of The Floating Admiral.
So what about these various lesser known authors? The first is Victor Lorenzo Whitechurch, who, like Ronald Knox, was a clergyman. He was also a railway enthusiast. He wrote a number of short stories, and some 24 books, some of which are still readily available. His most famous detective was Thorpe Hazell (created to be as unlike Sherlock Holmes, as possible, apparently!).
There’s not a lot about his life or history on the Net, apart from the link above, though several of his better-known books are listed.
Compilation Mystery
T
he interesting thing about the list of writers is that only a few are still remembered – well, remembered by me, anyway. Sayers and Chesterton are still widely read; Agatha Christie even more so and most of her books have probably never been out of print. Ronald Knox, Freeman Wills Croft and Clemence Dane are still familiar names. But what about these? Victor Whitechurch, G D H and M Cole, John Rhode, Milward Kennedy, Edgar Jepson and Anthony Berkeley. None of these mean a thing to me, so I’ll be devoting a little time to letting you know who they are over the next several posts.
By the way, the book is called The Floating Admiral.
